Chard ([info]chard) wrote,
@ 2004-10-23 16:09:00
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Chip and PIN — time to get organized

I got talking to a friend of mine about my unsuccessful attempts to get my bank to give me a written guarantee that I'm protected from fraud with Chip and PIN. It turns out he's tried and failed to get something similar from Barclays. We agree about the issues and decided it was time to get organized.

We have some ideas:

  • Write a form letter that people can use to ask for guarantees from their banks.
  • Recruit people with accounts at each of the high street banks to attempt to get these guarantees.
  • Write a story for the Sunday papers explaining the dangers of Chip and PIN, the misleading and disingenuous information that the banks seem to be putting about, and our experience of trying to get a guarantee that we're at least as safe from fraud as we were with signatures.

Who's interested in helping?


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[info]aldabra
2004-10-23 09:10 am UTC (link)
If you write a letter I'll try it out on the Royal bank of Scotland (Virgin account).

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[info]gerald_duck
2004-10-24 06:21 am UTC (link)
I'm with Abbey National. My card is not enabled for Chip and Pin, and I've had at least verbal assurances that it can't be enabled without my using the card in a cashpoint.

I guess that means I'm safe and happy for the moment, but I forsee problems if and when organisations start refusing signatures.

I've spoken to Ross Anderson; he takes the view that one should choose one's battles, and that this one is too difficult to win. I see his point, and am reticent about the prospect of soul-destroying wasted effort. It might be simpler to go back to carrying cash.

On the other hand, I am interested in helping, if someone comes up with a coherent and credible action plan.

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[info]chard
2004-10-24 10:54 am UTC (link)

I'm not planning to try to prevent Chip and PIN. I don't think that's a fight that can be won. I'm interested in getting a written guarantee from my bank that I'm at least as well protected against fraud (from anyone, including them) as I used to be. It's something I think they can't refuse to give if it becomes a public enough issue.

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[info]gerald_duck
2004-10-24 02:42 pm UTC (link)
I don't think that's a guarantee they can truthfully give, though — at least, not without exposing themselves to a bigger liability for fraud than they had before, in which case they'd presumably rather abandon the project, even now.

Even if our intentions are slightly different, I don't see how our requests could hope to achieve differing effects.

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[info]chard
2004-10-24 04:09 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps, but I also don't see how it'll be soul-destroying to try. I think it'll be interesting even if we fail, and that much can be learned.

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Risk and Help
(Anonymous)
2004-10-26 05:24 am UTC (link)
Banks won't give you a guarantee, because it opens them up to a risk of a sizable loss, and in return they get very little (your goodwill). Not to mention that the person making the decision is probably horribly underpaid, undertrained, and underexperienced, and under pressure to process N letters per hour.

This doesn't matter, however, as you want a method to publicise bank's insecurity.

I'd be happy to send a letter or two. First Direct and Barclays.

Business account holders should have slightly more clout than personal accounts, unless a person has millions deposited. (Presumably Chip and PIN will be rolled out to company VISA cards also).

Markus Kuhn might be interested in helping you.

Also, Cambridge University students Michael Bond and Richard Clayton hacked a popular internal security chip used by many banks, which made the news in 2001. I don't know where they are now (incognito in the Bahamas possibly), but they might be interested in helping.

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,48277,00.html


-- Martin Hollis

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Chip and Pin
(Anonymous)
2005-02-22 10:03 pm UTC (link)
Chip and pin is so secure that everyone watches as you type in your pin at Safeway or some other store. The poor card hold mysteriously loses said card or is mugged. His account is emptied before he has taped in the second of three 9's

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Lloyds leaflet
[info]p4user
2005-02-26 05:34 pm UTC (link)
I've just received a booklet from Lloyds TSB about Chip and Pin. There's a questions and answers section. Question 9 is:

Who would be responsible if my card was used fraudulently?

And the answer:

Lloyds TSB will protect you against fraud, provided you take reasonable measures to protect your card and PIN. Refer to page 7 for more details on PIN security. Also read the terms and conditions of your card for more details.

Page 7 has the usual advice about secrecy and not letting people see your PIN when you enter it. I'm afraid I don't have a current terms and conditions leaflet to hand — I expect I'll get one when the PIN-enabled card turns up.
These days I tend to use cash a lot more than I used to, though of course it is generally most convenient to use a debit card to get the cash from a cash machine.

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Chip and Spin
(Anonymous)
2005-03-07 01:34 pm UTC (link)
Hi, I'm a Journalist from Lincoln, and I'm more than interested in this idea. Personally, I think the whole Chip and Spin scheme is ludicrous and I cannot believe how easily we're all being duped. If we could start a campaign to make banks give us, the consumer, a written guarantee on protecting us from fraud, this would be a major step. Not only in combating the issue, but from being screwed over by the companies we make 14 billion profit a year to. If anyone has any more information on this letter request please let me know.

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Re: Chip and Spin
[info]chard
2005-03-07 05:03 pm UTC (link)
You must either leave some contact details here (where they will be public) or you can contact me via e-mail at Richard.Brooksby@pobox.com. I will be more than happy to discuss this with you. Otherwise I have no way to contact you as your posting to my journal was anonymous.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Chard
(Anonymous)
2006-02-01 02:39 pm UTC (link)
Hi Richard, A member of my family is a current victim of card fraud, you create the form and I will publish it on my web site www.chip-pin-fraud.co.uk Best regards Scam Buster

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